Test page

Carroll- All right. So, good afternoon. Today is Wednesday, August 28th, and we're here at RIT. My name is Tamar Carroll, and I'm a history member in… a history faculty member in the College of Liberal Arts here, and I am sitting with Sarah Zinken. Sarah, can you say hi?

 

Z- Hi.

 

C- And Sarah is a high school student at Brighton and a research assistant working with me on

the Lambda Kodak Project. And today, we're going to be interviewing Teri Eadom.

 

Eadom- Yep, yep, that's it.

 

C-And so, Terry, thank you for being here. And before we get started, is it okay with you

if we record this interview?

 

E- Yes.

 

C- Thank you. And is it okay if, when we're further along with this project, if we donate

the interview and the transcript of the interview, after you've had a chance to review them,

to the University of Rochester Archives?

 

E- Yes.

 

C- Okay. Thank you so much. Great. Well, I was hoping we could start with you just telling

us a little bit about yourself and your background. Did you grow up here in Rochester?

 

E- I did. I grew up here in Rochester, yeah. And I went to undergrad at Geneseo. I did

my, I got my master's here at RIT, and I've been in human resources for pretty much most

of my career.

 

C- Okay. Great. So, what degree did you pursue here at RIT?

 

E- I did a master's of human resource development.

 

C- Okay. Perfect. What brought you to Kodak?

 

E- When I graduated from, like I said, I haven't always been in human resources. When I first

graduated from Geneseo, I started at Kodak as a systems analyst, writing code. I don't

know what I was thinking. It was not a good fit. So, I mean, it was fine, but it's not,

I discovered pretty quickly it's not what I wanted to do for a career, so…

 

C- Yeah. About what year was that?

 

E- 1988.

C- 1988. Okay. So, and Kodak was still a really large employer at that time.

 

E- Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it was 60,000. It was still huge. It was shortly after that

that I spent a lot of my career downsizing and laying off. But yeah, back then it was

huge. Yeah.

 

C- Yeah. Were you excited to start working there?

 

E- Yeah. Yeah. Especially, I mean, you know, back then to work for Xerox or Kodak, just

that's what a lot of people did. You got out of school and went to work for one of the

big companies here in town.

 

C- Yeah. Did any of your family work at Kodak?

 

E- An uncle, but not anybody really close.

 

C- Yeah. So, you found out pretty quickly that wasn't the right position. Is that when you

went back to graduate school or?

 

E- No, I did that later on. I think when I was in my, when I was, I think I was in my 40s,

which isn't, I tell my kids, if you're going to get an advanced degree, do it a lot sooner

than that. No, I, they had a, what they called, they had a big retirement, which caused a lot of

movement at Kodak, which allowed me to transition into HR. So, which was great.

 

C- And that was like maybe in the early 90s.

 

E- Yeah, it was 92.

 

C- 92. So, just when Lambda was forming.

 

E- Yeah. Yeah. I didn't come to the party until a little later, but yeah. Yeah. I think I,

I'm trying to think when I joined, it was probably, I don't recall, 2000, something

around.

 

C- Okay. And what were you doing at HR?

 

E- So, I was a human resource manager at Elm Grove, and I had a situation with a leader

and an employee that was really upsetting to me. She was gay and he was incredibly insensitive and it made me, and so that's when I reached out and asked to join the Lambda board.

 

C- Oh, wow. How did you find out about Lambda?

 

E- Well, one nice thing about Kodak is they had all the different employee networks, and so

they were pretty well known and they would do events. So, it was, so back then, that

was one, I kind of took that for granted at the time, but it was just, I think being in

human resources, you were just really well aware of all the different employee network groups.

 

C- Okay. And how, what was Lambda like?

 

E- It was like the best bunch of people you ever want to work with. I mean, they were so passionate and just wanted to make Kodak a better, more accessible place. Like, they were so authentic and so genuine. And I remember at the time we had a leader in HR that was from Xerox and he said he was, he'd come from Xerox and he's like, oh, our equivalent employee network there was much different. Lambda was just more about partnering and educating and you just kind of wanted to be on their team. And he said, that's not how at Xerox their employee

network had approached. It was more adversarial. And so he, and it was, it was just, I can't

even explain what a wonderful group of people they were to work with. Just wonderful. Well,

you know, Emily, Dan, some of the people, I mean, they were just wonderful.

 

C- Were they able to help you with that situation? Were the...

 

E- They, we had them come in, I don't know if they've talked about the fishbowl exercise.

So we had them, and I remember at the time, in hindsight, I worried, I should have probably

worried about it more at the time that if I was inviting them into a safe environment

because this leader just didn't get, so we did that to try to educate and, you know,

so they were helpful, but I'm, I'm not sure it resonated the way I hoped it would have,

you know.

 

C- Because he just kind of shut down or...

 

E- Yeah, he just, you know, yeah. Just didn't, just didn't understand it, yeah. Yeah. It's a, you know, and so I looked at Sarah, it's such a better world that you live in. I mean, it really, I talk to my kids, it's so different, you know, so, which is, which is wonderful, you know.

 

Z- What was the culture like at Kodak regarding LGBTQ rights when you joined?

 

E- I don't really recall when I joined. I remember the time this incident happened

with this leader and employee. Our, the CEO was George Fisher, who was a very good CEO,

and his, I can't think of the word for it, his like right-hand person was somebody

that we all knew was gay. And so I felt like there was a lot of support.

This leader we had just hired in externally, so I think that was part of it.

He didn't understand the culture and the things that he said and did were just so unacceptable.

So I felt like Kodak was always, you know, a really, you know,

and again, I think Lambda had a huge part in that, so.

 

C- Yeah. Was it Cynthia Martin, who was his, yeah, executive assistant?

 

E- That's the word I'm looking for, thank you. Yeah, yeah, and she was, yeah, she was great, yeah.

 

C- Did he, did that leader ever change over the course of time that they were employed at Kodak, or?

 

E- No, they eventually left. It was not, it was not a good, and in hindsight,

what he did, I remember talking to the VP of HR, I worked with at the time,

and he kind of said it was a colossal error and we probably should have just fired him.

I think now that's probably, in hindsight, they didn't, but they probably should have.

 

C- Yeah, but, but he wound up leaving anyway, because it wasn't a good fit.

 

E- Yeah, it was not a good fit.

 

C- Do you think, did the employee wind up joining Lambda too?

 

E- Yes, I believe she, I'm trying to think, you know, I should know that. I'm so sorry, some of this was so long ago.

 

C- No, that's okay, it was many years ago.

 

E- I think she, I think she did. I can't recall now, I probably should know that.

 

C- Yeah, no, that's okay. I'm honestly just curious. So you got involved, Emily's, Emily Jones told us that you got involved working on the gender transition in the workplace policy with Lambda members?

 

E- Yes, yeah, yes, we had a Lambda member that was transitioning, and so we worked with someone in our diversity group to kind of document a process, which, you know, again, like I look at RIT now and it's like all the bathrooms are, you know, kind of gender, like that wasn't the case. The biggest issue with that was really sorting out bathrooms and people's comfort level with that at the time, so it was so different than it is now. But, yeah, so we documented a policy for that, so, and we involved, we involved this employee and it was, it was, yeah, it was really great to be part of that. So back then it was kind of cutting edge. I think now, I haven't even seen a copy of it in years. I'm sure I'd look at it and go like, oh, yeah, you know, but, but.

 

C- Yeah, and do you remember about when that was?

 

E- Gosh, I left there in 2006, so it had to be early 2000s, so.

 

Z- How did you decide what the key points of the gender transition policy would be?

 

E- Gosh, that's a good question.

Like I said, I remember, I remember the person in diversity talking about,

wow, we've talked a lot about bathrooms, a lot, like, unfortunately that was part of it,

and part of it was educating the work group.

One of the things we probably should have thought through more is,

and I think this was very unusual, the employee we had at the time that was transitioning was,

his wife had a lot of discomfort with it, so sometimes he would go back for it.

So sometimes he would present as a female and then she'd be uncomfortable

and he would go back to presenting as a male.

So he would kind of flip-flop, so sometimes that was just, people just weren't used to that.

So in hindsight, we probably should have done more education on that,

because I would think that's kind of unusual, I think, for most people,

and I can't speak for people, but that once you decide to move forward with the transition.

So his was a little, I think, unusual, so we probably should have spent more time on that part of it.

 

C- Were the bathrooms, were there any single-stall bathrooms, or were they all group bathrooms?

 

E- I think that's what we did, I think at the time was to try to find single-stall bathrooms at the time.

 

C- And was that successful, do you remember?

 

E- Yeah, I don't remember it being an issue.

And again, I think the Kodak was big enough that we usually could find, we could usually figure that out.

There were enough facilities, in other words.

 

C- Do you remember what else was involved in educating people about it?

 

E- Oh gosh, I feel terrible, it's been so long.

I remember just working with leaders and working with their departments

to try to educate them on what to expect, and not to be shocked,

and it's the same person you've worked with for years, and so they're just presenting differently.

But yeah, I don't recall all the details.

 

Z- Were there any main challenges you encountered when writing the gender transition and the workplace policy?

 

E- I think at the time, because there weren't any, there weren't many examples,

I remember us trying, I think one of the airlines had something,

I remember we were trying to find resources and examples, and at the time there just wasn't a lot.

 

C- Did you work with Out and Equal on it?

We probably did, I'm sure we used them as a resource,

really any resources we could use we would.

Back then we did a lot without an equal, I presented at a couple,

I used to make jokes, that was your ticket to entry to go to out and equal,

you had to present because then you got a cheaper rate,

so everybody that went to Out and Equal presented.

But I'm sure we probably did.

What was the other, oh my gosh, I'm so rusty, the human rights.

 

C- HRC, Human Rights Campaign.

 

E- So I'm sure we probably utilized any resources we could find.

 

C- Do you remember any of the person who was transitioning, any of their concerns?

 

E- I think he felt very accepted in his workplace.

I think his bigger issues with his wife and their struggles,

they're still married, I think it was more their struggles where she just,

and I get it, she just had a really hard time.

So sometimes he would, I remember the first time he came as Joanne,

it was Halloween, and so he shows up and it's pretty obvious

that this is not some guy dressing as a woman,

I mean his makeup was, he was very,

he reminded me of Mrs. Doubtfire,

but he was very impeccably dressed and the makeup,

and I remember that people were like, whoa,

and that's when I started to do more about creating a policy.

But I think the bigger issue was more his personal life.

I have to say, maybe I'm looking at it through rose-colored glasses,

but he was just a really likable person too,

so I think that helped with the transition.

And he was on the Lambda board, and so I think he, you know.

 

C- Were there any other people that once there was the policy

that they also started transitioning in the workplace?

 

E- I don't remember, I know we had somebody in human resources,

but I'm trying to, that may even be before the policy,

I'm trying to remember, and then he retired,

so that's the only one I really recall.

Sorry.

I'm so sorry, it was so long ago. I wish I had better recollections of some of this.

 

C- No, no, this is great.

 

Z- Are there any specific memories or stories about the time

or working with Lambda that you remember

that we haven't discussed already?

 

E- I think I shared with you, it was just,

when I was in human resources, we were doing a lot of downsizing,

and this was a real bright spot where you really felt

like you were doing things to make things better.

Yeah.

One of the other things we did is we, I think Dan sent it to,

which I'd forgotten about, is we did this partnership

with human resources, so we went to the head of, the VP of HR,

and we're like, we want to partner with human resources

to better educate people in human resources,

so they're better kind of seeds of change

and better advocates, and he was like,

this is great, he goes, I wish every network would come to me

and want to do this, so I remember we went to each,

and at the time, HR Kodak, Kodak was huge,

so HR Kodak was hundreds and hundreds, I mean, it was huge,

so we went to every department and did that presentation.

It was myself and somebody from the Lambda board,

one or two of us that would go and present,

and it was really great, I mean, it was just,

people were welcoming and wanted to understand and be educated,

and then after I was on the board,

several different VPs of HR wanted to be on the board,

so it really just kind of, just accelerated it,

you know, that people wanted to be involved,

which was great, you know.

 

C- So that kind of outreach was really effective.

 

E- Yeah, like I said, they were just,

the way, I mean, you've met so many of them,

they really positioned it like, we want to,

we want to work together to make this a better place,

you know, let's do that through education and acceptance,

and it was, you know, it was just a,

it was a unique group, I feel really fortunate that was part of it.

 

C- Yeah.

 

Z- Do you have any other, like, sort of proudest moments

or very proud moments of, like, working with the Lambda network?

 

E- Well, you know, it's funny, my husband and I were talking about it,

and I said, you know, I hope I can come back tomorrow,

I hope I can remember stuff, and so,

every, they would do this Out and Equal award,

and they would, people would receive it at our big event,

and these events would have like 500 people at it.

And so my husband was saying, and I get a little teary,

he goes, I still remember you getting the award.

And that meant so much to me.

Oh, I'm sorry, but that meant so much,

and it was great, I get a little teary, it was just a really,

I don't think I've ever had anything like that in my career

that's been like that, like, a group working so well together

toward a goal, so.

 

C- And feeling like, it seems to me like you felt like you were really

making a difference in people's lives.

 

E- Yeah, yeah, it was, you know,

I mean, we, like, things like Family Medical Leave Act,

like, before you were required to add domestic,

so Kodak did that in advance of having to be required,

and people would send us these lovely emails about,

oh, I can't believe, I appreciate that so much,

I feel seen, I feel, you know, just things like that.

It was, you know, hard to have this,

I don't know, they probably shipped the safe space magnets,

we used to, and, you know, I'd have one on my door,

and people would just stick their head in that, I didn't know,

and just say, I really appreciate you having that on your, you know.

Just little things like that that you remember, you know.

 

C- Yeah.

E- Geez, I didn't think I'd get all teary, my goodness.

 

C- Well, and when you think of Kodak being such a big place,

to have people, I mean, you couldn't possibly know everyone

who worked there, so to have people come in

and just give you feedback like that,

that it made a difference. One of the things I've wondered about

sometimes is, I know that a lot of the people that were on the board

were kind of in supervisory roles,

and I was wondering, like, do you think that

the efforts reached, like,

workers that were in the factories and

kind of on the line?

 

E- That's a really good question.

Probably not as much,

we probably could have done more,

 

—---------------------- 19.11

now that I think about that, because that's, you know,

the person that

was transitioning, he was a technician,

but that's a little different role than being

kind of an operator, so

now that I think about it, probably could have done more

along those lines, yeah.

Well, I wonder, though, if some of those letters you got might have been from people

on the line. It's hard to know, right?

Because the policies impacted everyone.

Yeah.

What was it like

going through those waves of downsizing?

Oh, it was horrible. It was just horrible.

Especially when you

got to know your client really well and you knew

how it personally impacted people that were losing their jobs.

It's the reason I left. It was just so

hard. I remember

one of many layoffs, and

I'm going into the building, it was like 6 o'clock in the morning, because we were going to notify people

that day, and I always got there early to make sure, because we'd have counselors

on site and I wanted to make sure everything was set up, so I was

escorting the counselors in, and there was a

supervisor coming in with me at the same time, and I knew

he had been told the night before he'd been laid off,

but he wanted to come in and personally tell his own folks

Thursday. And I remember saying,

I don't cry all the time really, and I just started crying because I know

this guy just lost his job, but he was so

honorable, he wanted to come in. He could have been like, forget it, I'm not going to come in.

And he was like, no, I want to come in and tell my people, my 30

employees, you know, if they have a job or not. But it was awful.

It was awful.

What do you believe is Lambda's legacy today?

Oh.

You know, it's too bad that Kodak isn't

what it was, but I think

their legacy is just really this

every once in a while you're on a team that's just amazing,

that does really good things. So I think their legacy is they made

Kodak a much better place.

Not just for LGBTQ,

but I think just for everybody.

I think when you have that

kind of understanding and empathy and you want to

educate and be authentic, I think that just

impacts everyone.

It's just too bad they didn't have that kind of

impact in the company stage.

And what it would have evolved into.

When Dan Sapper told me he was the last person,

I don't even know what happened to Lambda. I mean, I know it existed

for a while, but I'm sure it just

I don't even think it exists anymore.

He left in 2017.

That was that long ago now. Wow.

And he said that by then they had basically

all of the networks had ceased to function

because the workforce had just gotten too small

to support the

ERGs.

But I think, you know,

Terry, another thing that I've been thinking about is

certainly part of the legacy is the people

that Lambda touched and the people

within Kodak. But I've also been really

interested in the way that

Kodak's marketing might have

reached beyond

Rochester and influenced

consumers in general.

And I've seen

Sarah and I have watched a 2016 film

that is really well done and

powerful and quite remarkable that

shows two

young male baseball players that are

in love with each other. And it's about the father

accepting them and using photography

to signal his acceptance of his son.

But I was wondering if while you were still at Kodak

did you notice any difference in the

marketing or any use of

LGBTQ

people or sort of couples

in the marketing that would be read

as gay or lesbian?

Boy, that's really good. I just don't recall.

That's a really good question.

It didn't work in marketing or anything.

So it's not really fair to spring it on you.

That's a really good question. I would hope

but I don't know.

Dan has put me in touch with some people

in marketing. So we'll follow up with that.

I'd be curious. I would hope.

Some of the Lambda members have talked about

their photo booth and how that was a big part

of their events.

Taking pictures and having pictures

with their partner

was a way of coming out in the workplace.

It just seems like photography

was also a way

that Lambda educated

others.

Is there anything you would want people to know about Lambda

or about gender transitioning in the workplace?

I guess

the folks like Dan

Emily

they have been doing this since

1992. The fact that they started this

I came later

so I jumped on a really fun

run and train.

The fact that they thought

on how to put this together

I can't even imagine.

I give them a lot of credit. They were real pioneers.

Especially to do this back in the early 90s.

It's so different now.

It's just

much more accepted

There's things we dealt with now

that aren't even on people's radars.

Like I said, having worked here at RIT

in Human Resources

if you present

that's the gender you go in.

At Kodak 20 years ago that would have made people's heads

fly off their shoulders.

Were you able to take what you learned

about Lambda and apply it later in your career

in HR?

It's definitely

I do HR consulting now

I'm at a small optics company

we had an issue about a year ago

where we had hired somebody

and his trainer

who I didn't know

on his third day said

he is saying really offensive things

and I cannot work with him.

We immediately went and sent that new employee home

we're going to do an investigation

and we fired him the next day.

The small business owners were incredibly supportive.

Things like that

you need to deal with it immediately.

I'm not sure years ago that would have happened.

So having a no-tolerance policy

for harassment and discrimination

Especially at small companies

there's things that are taught.

That's a powerful example.

It must be hard

to share stories

of how homophobia is impacting

them in the workplace

Did you have any personal connection to it?

Or was it really just seeing

that employee struggling with the boss

that was...

My son

one of his friends is transgender

and she got kicked out of her house

and she was always

always welcome.

Is there anything you would do differently?

I'm so sorry

It's very close to my heart

Is there anything you would do differently

with how everything was handled

with the Lambda Network?

It's interesting when you bring up

shop floor

Did we focus it up there?

Or marketing

There's so many more things we could have done

It was like your side hustle

I remember doing stuff on the weekends

but it was far more rewarding

than stuff I was doing during the week

You accomplished a lot

Lambda accomplished a lot

in a short period of time

Of course there's always more

but it's pretty remarkable

to go from a corporate culture

in which almost no one was out

to 10 years later

having one of the first gender transitioning

in the workplace policies in the nation

having heads of HR

advocating before Congress

for non-discrimination

That's a lot to achieve that in 15 years

It's so funny

I remember when I first joined

People were going to think you're gay

I'm like, really?

But that was some of the strange

questions you would get

Because of the stigma

Or if I had it on my resume

I'm like, if that's an issue

I don't want to work there

If somebody reads my resume

But it was brave

For Emily and Dan

It was brave

And for everyone that was involved

That could have ruined their careers

Just being who they are

I'm so glad you're diving into this

They really did amazing

And they're a lot of fun

Yeah, they are a lot of fun

Very energetic

And smart and funny

And passionate

I'm sure you follow this

Because you're still consulting in HR

Some states are making it more difficult

To be your authentic self

That's part of what motivates me

As a historian

Let's look at this from the past

And see what we can learn

Because it's not good

When people have to be closeted

In the workforce

And unfortunately, Florida

And other states

We're working on an exhibit

That will open at the George Eastman Museum

In June for Pride Month

June 2026

I'm very excited

And I'd like to develop a curriculum

So that high schools

Can come visit on field trips

And learn about this

How can your transitioning

In the workforce be part of that?

Even though you were dealing with it

In the early 2000s

There's still a lot of misunderstanding

And lack of education

Around transgender issues

Was there anything you found

That was especially effective

I still remember

And I don't know who on Lambda

Brought this person

But they brought somebody

That wasn't a Kodak employee

And we were just able to ask them

Any question, respectfully

Because it was coming from a place

Of wanting to understand

I've never seen this

It was like a spectrum

If this is how you present yourself

Do you present yourself as male or female

Are you a girly girl

Or are you somebody that presents more

As a man

And I remember this person

Here's where I am

He told me that there's different

I'm trying to think of the right word

It's not cut and dry for everybody

Yeah

We had somebody else on the land

Before I forgot about him

I remember he was an engineer

He told me he kept track

Of how many people he let know

I remember he invited me over

For dinner one on one

To get to know Linda

And it was great

What a great memory to share

Thank you

And that's really taking a risk

To be vulnerable

To make yourself vulnerable

But there is such joy

In authenticity

As you were saying

And I feel like I might be

Because it was John Joanne

And I'm not even sure how he's presenting today

And he might have very different memories

But again, he was just such a likable person

It seemed like it went pretty well for him

Again, maybe I'm looking at it

Through rose colored glasses

Well, just having the support

Of HR is big though

Was it Metzler?

Is that the right person?

Yeah, John Balmer was the person

I'm thinking about

I'm still friends with him on Facebook

Do you think

That they might want to talk with us about this?

Yeah, I mean, because he lived it

And like I said, he was the one that

For personal reasons kind of went back and forth

It was hard on him

Because I think he really just wanted to present as a female

But yeah, I could probably reach out through Facebook

That would be awesome

Yeah, if they are not

Then of course we understand

If they don't want to meet with us

But if they would talk to us, that would be really helpful

Another was Tom Box

Yeah

I still remember

He told me a story that broke my heart

When he was very early on

As Linda

And he went to charge it

And the waitress looked at his credit card

And was like, oh, this is stolen

It says Tom

And he said that stopped him from going out

He didn't go out for years after that

How horrible of a person are you to do that?

Yeah

Yeah

The power of police

Yeah

Yeah

I did get to interview Tom

A couple summers ago

I was really nice to talk with him

He was in good health

And he seemed happy to remember Lambda as well

That's good

We were out of town, I'm so sorry

It would have been great to see everybody again

Hopefully we can come to the exhibit

Yeah, that would be wonderful

We'll have a big party for that

Thank you for digging into all this

It's a pleasure

It's so nice to talk to people

It's so beautiful to them

And that they're proud of

It's great

And it's really inspiring

Thank you

I don't know if I appreciated it as much as I should have

That was a really great group of people

Yeah

You appreciate it after when things are just normal

Yeah

Even my husband

He went to One Out and Equal

We were laughing about it last night

We were at the sessions all day

It was him and Emily's partner

And they would all go out

We had pictures on the horseback

I remember I'd get out of the session

It was fun, we were talking about that last night

Everybody bonded

You got to know people's partners

It was great

My kids were little bringing them to Lambda events

I'm talking like 2 or 3

That's awesome

I'm sure that's part of why your son

He was accepting of his friend

He grew up with an understanding

Of the importance of treating people with respect

I hope so

Sometimes I'm like, I forgot they didn't even know that part of my life

Terri, thank you so much

Was there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn't discuss?

No

Awesome

I'm going to go ahead and pause this